Fuel tank and battery mounting question

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RonKMiller
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Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#1 Post by RonKMiller » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:50 am

On my toon I've got two large aft ventilated compartments on both sides of the motor. The original manufacturer had a 19 gallon fuel tank in the starboard side, and the battery in the port side. Between the two there was a LOT of wasted space.

I've mounted a new 29 gallon "main" tank in the starboard side, and want to mount a new 12 gallon "reserve" tank AND the battery in the port side. Both tanks are Moeller permanent mount marine tanks and meet specifications. Obviously the hoses and fittings need to be up to snuff as well. I plan on using a manual selector to switch supply from "main" to "reserve" when needed. At 41 gallons this may seem to be overkill on fuel, but I've got 180 miles and several thousand miles of shoreline to explore, with a marina at both ends and one in the middle. Once underway I want the option to stay out for up to two weeks at a time without returning to a marina for supplies.

I plan on placing a 5/8" marine plywood bulkhead in the battery/fuel tank compartment to essentially split it in two - with one third for the battery, and the rest for the 12 gallon tank, with a common access lid on the top. The factory mounted ventilating louvers will be shared as well, there are two located on the outside of the compartment: one mounted high on one side, the other low on the other.

Are there any Coast Guard regulations (or common sense issues) regarding this? :donno

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chill'nthemost
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#2 Post by chill'nthemost » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:38 am

Not that I would know but my batteries and fuel tank are in the same compartment from the factory. I'm guessing many are.
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jimrs
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#3 Post by jimrs » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:15 pm

That's what I was thinking. Mine has them both in the same compartment without the need of a divider. Good Luck, that is what I would do as I hate getting gas as I have to carry it down to the boathouse in 5 gal cans.
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#4 Post by RonKMiller » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:57 pm

Thanks guys - I actually got in touch with my local coast guard rep this afternoon and he checked with higher authority as well. He's the one that's going to be giving me my "sticker".

They're interested in any chance of sparking with the battery - and he felt that especially the way I had it planned with a serious bulkhead between the two there would not be a problem.

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Ike
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#5 Post by Ike » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:09 pm

Why wait, I can give it to you straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. I worked in the USCG Office of Boating Safety for 20 years.

Actually, if this is an outboard powered boat the USCG regs do not apply.
Sec. 183.501 Applicability.
(a) This subpart applies to all boats that have gasoline engines, except outboard engines, for electrical generation or mechanical power for propulsion.
Having said that it is still smart to follow the regs, as well as the American Boat and Yacht Council Standards, which is what that CG Auxiliarist will tell you.

Yes you can have the battery in the same space as the fuel tank. A battery is not considered a source of ignition. However, if there is a battery switch then it is a source of ignition. So the space needs to be ventilated.
Sec. 183.620 Natural ventilation system.
(a) Except for compartments open to the atmosphere, a natural ventilation system that meets the requirements of Sec. 183.630 must be provided for each compartment in a boat that: (1) Contains a permanently installed gasoline engine;
(2) Has openings between it and a compartment that requires ventilation, where the aggregate area of those openings exceeds 2 percent of the area between the compartments, except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section;
(3) Contains a permanently installed fuel tank and an electrical component that is not ignition protected in accordance with Sec. 183.410(a); (4) Contains a fuel tank that vents into that compartment; or
(5) Contains a non-metallic fuel tank:
(i) With an aggregate permeability rate exceeding 1.2 grams of fuel loss in 24 hours per cubic foot of net compartment volume, or
(ii) If the net compartment volume is less than one cubic foot, having a permeability rate exceeding 1.2 grams of fuel loss in 24 hours.Reference fuel ``C'' at 40 degrees Celsius plus or minus 2 degrees Celsius from ASTM standard D-471-1979 is to be used in determining the permeability rate.
(b) Each supply opening required in Sec. 183.630 must be located on the exterior surface of the boat.
(c) An accommodation compartment above a compartment requiring ventilation that is separated from the compartment requiring ventilation by a deck or other structure is excepted from paragraph (a)(2)
However it is always best to separate fuel from electrical and putting a barrier between the two is good, even if it isn't required.

ABYC Says
10.7.8
Each metallic fuel line and fuel system component within 12 inches (305mm) of the horizontal or vertical plane of the battery surface containing the terminals, as installed, shall be shielded with dielectric material to protect against accidental short-circuiting. See Figure 1.

NOTES:

1. Terminal insulation or battery covers do not provide compliance with this requirement since, during installation or removal of a battery, these protective devices are usually removed in order to connect the cables.

2. Any non-conductive material may be used for shielding as long as it is durable enough to withstand accidental contact by a tool or the battery terminals during servicing, installation or removal
Also you should not have a fuel line running directly over or under a battery. The battery should have some means of containing any electrolyte that may accidentally spill. A battery box would do this or a tray several inches deep. The battery must be secured so it won't move, and if you put it in a box then the box must be secured as well.
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#6 Post by RonKMiller » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:52 am

Thanks Ike! 20 years... um, yeah - that works for me!

I'm always amazed at how much just plain horse sense goes into something like this... I'm pretty confident I've got it covered. As a Commercial Pilot by profession I HATE surprises - and especially ones that explode. :scared

The 5/8" Meranti BS 1055 9 ply (thought you would appreciate that...) :biggrin2 floor is covered with a thick EPDM one piece membrane to protect it from acid/fuel spills. All power cables exit through the hole in front of the battery cover, so they will be on one side of the bulkhead, completely separated from the fuel compartment/hoses.

Here's the set up - minus the plywood bulkhead:
IMG_20101028_164129.jpg
IMG_20101028_164129.jpg (51.27 KiB) Viewed 7346 times
12 gallon tank.jpg
12 gallon tank.jpg (8.48 KiB) Viewed 7346 times
toon bat compartment.jpg
toon bat compartment.jpg (127.56 KiB) Viewed 7342 times

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Ike
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#7 Post by Ike » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:41 am

Happy new year

Well, you know what they say about old pilots and bold pilots

Anyway , you can find a lot of answers to questions like this on my web page http:/newboatbuilders.com
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#8 Post by chill'nthemost » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:02 pm

Ike, it's great to have an expert with the years of experience on this forum. Thank you. Unless I've read something wrong, my toon with a stern drive should have a vent for the gas/battery compartment. It makes perfect sense not to have the battery a/b switch mounted on the inside of the compartment. I think I'll be moving mine to the other side of the wall so it will be in the engine compartment. From what I read, since it's not an outboard our toon should of had a vent in the gas/battery compartment from the factory. This year I've left the batteries in the boat with the battery tenders on but I have the compartment lid propped open about 2 ft. I don't plug then in until the connections are made on the battery terminals. Would you be ok with doing that? Thanks again for your professional advice & Happy New Year!
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#9 Post by Ike » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:40 pm

Any boat with a permanently installed gasoline engine is required to have a ventilation system for the engine compartment. It needs an in and an out and a blower on the exhaust vent hose.
See http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/vent.html

Batteries must also be vented to the atmosphere. Fortunately with batteries it doesn't take a lot of ventilation. Hydrogen dissipates extremely rapidly so if you have a hole in the battery box, or the battery is not in a box, and an opening in the top of the compartment, that is sufficient. any opening will do. If the battery is in the engine compartment and the engine compartment is ventilated then you are set.

The alternative is if the engine compartment is open to the atmosphere. 15 square inches of opening for every cubic foot of compartment space is considered open to the atmosphere.

Propping the engine lid open is ok for the interim but i would go buy some a switch, some wire, ducts, cowls and a blower and do it right. There is also supposed to be a warning label next to the blower switch but if it's not there don't worry about it. Just remember to run the blower for five minutes before you start the engine.

If your battery switch is ignition protected there is no need to move it unless you simply want to. If it is not ignition protected then moving it is a good idea, but not required if the compartment is ventilated. What is ignition protected? It means that the device will not create a spark that will ignite fuel vapors. If it is, it should be labeled, or you can check with the switch manufacturer. But as I said if the switch is not ignition protected, and the compartment is ventilated, it's ok.
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#10 Post by chill'nthemost » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:58 pm

My batteries are not in the engine compartment. I think I'm good then from what I understand. The charging question with the battery tenders is based on charging batteries that are in the fuel compartment, separate from the engine. I have 3 compartments in the aft. Port is the changing room, center is the engine and starboard is the gas/battery. This year I left the batteries in place while charging with 2 tenders. Is there an issue with charging on board? That's the compartment I keep open while in storage and charging the batteries. Thanks for your input.
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Ron Burgundy
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#11 Post by Ron Burgundy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:01 pm

RonKMiller wrote: I plan on using a manual selector to switch supply from "main" to "reserve" when needed. At 41 gallons this may seem to be overkill on fuel, but I've got 180 miles and several thousand miles of shoreline to explore, with a marina at both ends and one in the middle.
What are you using for a manual selector (is it custom built)? I have a similar setup, but my main tank is currently not in use. The previous owner disconnected it, and I want to reconnect it to add more fuel capacity.
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#12 Post by Bamby » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:24 am

toon bat compartment.jpg
toon bat compartment.jpg (132.1 KiB) Viewed 7191 times
My boat has the same exact party hut rear as yours does just maybe a different year model. Anyway I changed mine from the stock small hinged lid to a fully hinged cover (see green line above) which allows full access to some real nice real estate for storage. Mine also has the battery enclosed but I placed it where the yellow square is located above. Instead of a permanent extra fuel tank when we go on extended outings I place a couple of six gallon fuel cans (red above) in the compartment for extra fuel. Plus I then have portable containers should I need to walk to a close onshore gas station for fuel replenishment which I've also needed to do a time or two. As an added plus there is still room to store a few bumpers on top of everything and still close the lid.

I also modified the other main fuel side with a fully hinged cover and also modified the fuel tank fill to straight up. This way I can just lift the lid and easily pour the extra fuel directly into the fuel tank with far less issues or concerns about spillage. I also had room for and the access to install the fuel water separator in the compartment above the tank also. Plus there seems to always be a bumper or two stowed away in there as well.
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GregF
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#13 Post by GregF » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:01 pm

What you are looking for is a brass "3 way" fuel shutoff valve.
It is basically a "T" style ball valve with "A", "B" and "OFF".
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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#14 Post by FloterBoter » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:49 pm

i put my battery and fuel tank in different compartments on opposite sides.
no worries that way.

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Re: Fuel tank and battery mounting question

#15 Post by RonKMiller » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:02 am

Ron Burgundy wrote:
RonKMiller wrote: I plan on using a manual selector to switch supply from "main" to "reserve" when needed. At 41 gallons this may seem to be overkill on fuel, but I've got 180 miles and several thousand miles of shoreline to explore, with a marina at both ends and one in the middle.
What are you using for a manual selector (is it custom built)? I have a similar setup, but my main tank is currently not in use. The previous owner disconnected it, and I want to reconnect it to add more fuel capacity.
Brass 3 way valve - previously used on a single tank with main, reserve and off. Now my 29 gallon will be "main" and the 12 gallon "reserve".
brass valve.jpg
brass valve.jpg (13.54 KiB) Viewed 7092 times

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