Good Day to be on the Lake, bad day on the lake...

[ronb]

Have you called them ? If this were me, I'd call the bank and state you will not pay until this is fixed by the dealer. I would have already towed it back there and refuse to leave until they agree to fix it.

I have talked to the dealership a few times, I don't think he wants to admit that they sold me a lemon, nor that they did not do the standard motor evaluation (Crystal Pierz said they check Compression, oil pressure, voltage -- charging system, fuel pressure, and do a full read out from the computer as part of their standard engine evaluation -- the dealer I bought from uses Crystal Pierz for all their mechanical work, they did not do an inspection on this craft. FWIW, CP has been great to work with so far).

I am going to call the bank in a little bit to let them know about this situation, but I am a little hesitant to push it forward too aggressively until I get a solid denial of assistance from the dealership. He may just be waiting on the final bill to determine his course of action.. When the coil went bad he agreed to replace it on his dime, not sure if that is an admission that he may have felt bad about selling us the boat in this condition, or if he just wanted me to leave. I really like the salesman, he's friendly and was the guy who sold us our Equinox back in 2006 (new), so between the 2 purchases his company has made about $60k from us, I'd hope that means something to him about return customers and customer loyalty, but maybe I am being to 'understanding' about him being a small business owner and he has to be careful about his profits and losses too (my wife is also a small business owner, but in her line of work she has insurance that would cover 'fall out' if a transaction went bad).

I would really like to get this resolved asap, I wanted to skip out of work on Friday afternoon (high 80's) and saturday is supposed to be up around 90°f. I also have friends coming from Nebraska over the week of July 4 and had planned on spending a lot of time on the water with them and their 2 boys.. floating and tubing..

-ron

[ronb]

I still haven't heard from the dealer, his wait and see attitude is getting a little annoying, I know the salesman isn't a mechanic so he has to rely on somebody else and since he still hasn't declined any repair bill, he's on my highly annoying list but not on my sh*t list yet.. fwiw, we've bought stuff from him before and even his friends cant get a hold of him, so he isn't specifically avoiding me, but he is aweful at communication... someday after this fall out and repair I'll post up his business name and website. But I'd rather leave him out of this until I actually get denied assistance...

But anyway... like I was saying yesterday afternoon I was thinking to myself what is the worse case scenario and how should I proceed, so I hit the internets looking for replacement motors/rebuilt powerheads. I stumbled upon an ebay listing for a company called
Northern Outboard Salvage Marine
(NOS MARINE)
106 W. 3rd Ave.
P.O. Box 697
Keewatin, MN. 55753
(218)403-0450
(218)403-0299
nosmarine@yahoo.com

They had the following ebay listing..

2008 90 115 Optimax Powerhead
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-90-115-Hp- ... 77#vi-desc

He had his phone number listed so I called Paul, we talked for about 35 minutes about what he offers, what he guarentees, what he requires for installation (does it require a 'mechanic' or can I do it) and he made a recommendation for a local repair facility that he ships a lot of Optimax parts to, which is..

Kovash Marine
Moorhead MN
http://www.kovashmarine.com/

This place came recommended by one of my neighbors, the banker I was talking to yesterday, the guy from Keewatin, and my wife's receptionist.

I called over there about 4pm to find out what their feelings are toward working on another Optimax, I got Pat the owner, he answered their phone. I tell him the symptoms..
No compression on #1
Rough Idle (no doubt due to the compression issue)
Crystal Pierz cannot get into the computer to read any diagnostic information

He stated that on these motors if a Direct Injector fails they will present as no compression and asks if they have had a bore scope down the hole to check for scarring/scoring (they had not)

According to him 530hrs on an Optimax is 'low hours' he typically does not see any real problems with them until they are above 2000hrs (good news to my ears) during our chat he also lets me know that he thinks the prop I just bought (Quicksilver 13.75 x 15p) is too much and that it will slow down the motor too much. And then he tells me to go get my boat from CP and bring it to him. He has many spare parts (new/rebuilt) and can get me back on the water faster.

I left work 15 minutes later and got my boat and took it over to his shop, CP did not charge me anything for their 'work'. Its not that I think CP wouldn't have done a good job eventually, its that I want to get my new purchase back on the water now (or as soon as possible) and CP is backed up, they only have 2 techinicians and normally they have 2 service writers but one is on vacation this week, and as they said they were trying to squeeze me in before the weekend. As Pat from Kovash told me, when you call here you will always talk to the mechanic, he won't give me any service writer run around.

I must say, pulling a 24ft pontoon through town during rush hour and through traffic when it is 87°f and being surrounded by idiot drivers who continously cut me off was NOT my idea of a good time. At one point I had to lock up the brakes to keep from hitting some a$$pony that cut me off as a light turned red, I swear small car drivers have NO concept of how much space a truck and trailer require to safely stop, I leave a safe distance between me and the car ahead, some Id10t would pull into it...

So I finally get to Kovash, they closed 20 minutes earlier but the mechanics are still working on boats (4 or 5 of them) the owner Pat has gone home for the day, I really wish I would have gotten the mechanics name that I talked to that did my service order write up, he as a friendly guy (showed me the bore scope, which looks just like endoscopy equipment but less sterile) I counted no less than 6 rebuilt and ready to install 90hp Mercury Optimax motors/drives hanging on their racks ready to go. I also found out that if I want a 115, the only things I need to change is the ECM and remove an air restricter the powerhead/fuelsystem/everything else is the same (they offered to do for me if I so chose...25 more HP I will get prices after I get my current motor sorted)

It turns out that this shop pretty much only works on motors/drives. According to the mechanic I was talking to, this winter all of their bays were filled with rebuilt motors. All winter long they buy motors, repair the ones that can be saved and scavenge from those that cannot. Then come Spring they have a very nice inventory of used/rebuilt motors to sell. I think I am going to like these guys, I have a motor problem and all they work on is motors, I wish I had known about them when this mess started...

I am still not slighted toward Crystal Pierz, I think they are just too busy and I am too impatient.

Just got off the phone with Pat (Kovash) the #1 piston is garbage, he is working up prices for installing a replacement powerhead and he says I will be back on the lake by next Friday (which sort of stinks but at least he gave me a timeline and he has only had the boat in for inspection since 8am this morning it is currently 9:40a CST)

He said that he has a 'like new' powerhead that was on a boat that caught fire, he is going to do some figuring on what is a reasonable price, I let him know that his competitor (NOS Marine) told me $1200-$1500 (plus refundable core $800) and that Crystal Pierz had quoted me $3400 for a Mercury Quicksilver replacement. He stated that the CP part installed would run up to about $5k, and he would most likely be under $3k for his (parts and labor)

Not sure if I should call the dealership now and let him know preliminary costs or if I should wait until I get the final pricing/costs...
My wife thinks I should call the dealer and have him give us a loaner for this weekend (supposed to be 90°f tomorrow), you guys got any thoughts?

-ron

[badmoonrising]

I'd demand a loaner AND payment for any work you are having done...

[jmad]

I'd demand a loaner AND payment for any work you are having done...

+1... Sorry for your troubles. What a mess; and one you should not be dealing with! Only advice I would give is to make sure they will pay what your new mechanic is charging. It may be smart to get a couple estimates to show them. Good
Luck!!

[ronb]

He never called me back today, so I stopped in to see him after work today. He volunteered too take care of the bill for repair and tomorrow he will know whether he has a pontoon or a boat to loan me. He has plenty of boats in stock but I want a toon and he hopes have the ones in his inventory sold tomorrow.

-ron

[badmoonrising]

Good luck, hope he keeps his word.

[ronb]

I got a call from Kovash Marine yesterday (6/11) morning, the cause of the failure.. water in the 2 cycle tank. According to them, there is a seal that keeps rainwater out of the engine cover and another that keeps it out of the 2 cycle tank. They said mine had failed (the seal) and that let water accumulate in the 2 cycle oil tank and when the 2 cycle pump tried to lubricate the cyclinders with water instead of oil, well things just didn't work out long term.

I am getting ready to head over there and visit (I like to visit...) and stop by the muffler shop next door to have a piece of 1.25" round tubing bent for my ski/tube tow bar. I want to see what they've found so far and get clarification on what sort of warranty they are offering on their repair. He has a low hour Optimax powerhead from a boat that burned, according to him the motor suffered very little from the fire (wiring and hoses burnt but no damage to the powerhead itself, he even tested that the direct injectors were good), but as it is a used part; will it be covered for 90 days like the auto wrecking yard (or longer?) or am I 'as is' again...

Still no word on the ECM, which bugs me a little bit. I have asked him to check it a couple times and he said he wants to wait until the motor is reasembled before he starts testing that the error codes are being thrown correctly when voltage drops on the sensors (temp/O2/knock/etc). If the computer is non-functional (or impaired/defective) he has several other Optimax 90hp and 115hp ECMs on stock (for another $1k...)

According to a few boat mechanics that I've talked to in the last few days the only differences between the 90hp and the 115hp is the tune in the ECM and an air flow restrictor. If the ECM tests good, I am keeping it as is, but if not... its upgrade time (they are the same price to replace either way, so why not)

-ron

[ronb]

I should also let you know that last weekend (it was hot here 90°f+) the dealership did give us a loaner, a 2008 Bennington 2574RLI
I don't know if it was because of the super strong wind, the extra girth (3ft longer, heavier engine, heavier trailer, etc) or because we ran the AC all day on high, but pulling this thing dropped my gas mileage from 12mpg (when pulling my 2007 South Bay 922CR with the 18yr old 3/4t GMC shown in the pic) to a paultry 7mpg.. I could watch fuel guage move, it made my butt hurt, right around my wallet area....

I had hopes of high speed cruising with this 'toon. Large tubes, lifting strakes inside and out, The Yamaha 150 4 stroke was running a Solex 15x15 aluminum prop. But it did not perform as I had hoped/expected. We heard a lof of what must be cavitation coming from the prop when trying to get 'up to speed', we couldn't give it full throttle from full stop, most of the time when we were up to speed around 2k RPM we still couldn't go full throttle, we had to ease into it, otherwise it sounded like the prop was churning and making froth... I don't know if the following was because of the lifting strakes on the outside of the tubes, or just a normal behaviour of a longer 'toon. But when you would try to corner hard at all, it would lose all forward momentum and cavitate like crazy, no sirens or alerts went off that the motor was overrevving (I had that happen a few times with my SouthBay Optimax when we went over large swells) but if you didn't pull back the throttle it wouldn't bite again. Another thing I thought was weird was that the inner lifting strakes did not extend all the way to the rear of the tubes, but the outer strakes did. Since I have never been on a 'toon with strakes I had expected to 'feel' it lift out of the water when it got up to speed and that just never happened, when I looked over the sides of the 'toon at max throttle (wife was driving) greater than 2/3 (more like 3/4) of the tubes were in the water and I couldn't even see the lifting strakes at the front of the tubes (I assumed that they would be visible if the 'toon was up on them) We didn't have a GPS with us on this trip so I don't know what speed we were actually going, it felt like a good speed... when we were full throttle you could see the top of the cavitation plate just below the water spray indicating good engine depth, but I really felt like the Prop was letting us down. The engine was whisper quiet compared to the Optimax. The 'toon had a lot of nice features like changing room and the extra 'captains' seats in the front.

This model does have a collapsable tube pulling pole that retracts into the sun deck, but we didn't have a tube with us (we left it on our boat that is getting repaired.

Aside from what I percieve to be the need for prop tuning, the only other issues that we noticed was that when we were on the water, whenever a wave would hit the floor under the second (rear most) of the 2 captains seats, you could see water coming up from the bottom. I assume that this is almost a 'natural' downfall of having the wood seams directly above a brace and that the waves against the brace forces the water through the crack. At first I thought one of the kids had spilled their juicebox (clear liquid non-staining color) but then I watched it for a while, you can see in a couple of the pictures the wet spot on the floor. And the down braces on the ladder need to be rewelded.

I won't be asking for it, but I think that this pontoon on smoother water (it was really really windy Saturday 6/9) with a tube would have been a blast and I honestly think that my let down on performance was probably just me being sour about using a loaner rather than the boat I am paying for (but I am still happy that we got onto the water!) Pictures with water in the background were taken at Pelican Lake, MN.

-ron

[ronb]

Back from getting my tube/ski bar bent and visiting the 'toon over at Kovash..

Poor 'toon is in impound

IMG-20120612-01350.jpg (83.17 KiB) Viewed 3066 times

And (power)headless...

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IMG-20120612-01362.jpg (69.06 KiB) Viewed 3060 times

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The mechanic showed me the motor
#1 Piston.. is junk

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IMG-20120612-01355.jpg (56.34 KiB) Viewed 3061 times

The #1 cylinder has evidence of pounding piston and ring parts into the combustion chamber

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#2 looks better

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and #3 looks 'good'

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Unfortunately now instead of being able to be done this Friday, he is telling me that Monday is the best bet for getting it back.. probably because I didn't tell him to go for it early yesterday, other customers 'snuck' in there.. and he offers 90day warranty on all his work (limited to the components that he rebuilds/replaces)

oh well, I will know better next time.. how does that old saying go?
"shit or get off the pot"

I don't know what alloy it is, but from work I may be able to pick up a piece of 60 inches x 120 inches aluminum for wholesale market value. I measured the underside of my 'toon and from tube support brace to tube support brace it is 58", so I should be able to put a 1" bend on either side of the long sheet and screw the whole thing up into place, I am trying to decide if I want this to start at the farthest aft support brace, or if I should use this single huge piece starting at the brace in front of the transom and then use 2 smaller pieces on either side (versus cutting a huge V out of this piece). No matter, I will get a new thread and pics/how to going on that after I purchase the Aluminum and get some measurements done.

-ron

[cobbhunts]

Just out of curiosity, what thickness is the aluminum you have at work? I know a little bit about alloys, so if you can find out what type and thickness I may be able to give you some pointers!! 6061, 7075, 3003 aluminum ect...

[ronb]

I will verify tomorrow but me and a coworker took a digital caliper out and it appears to be .080 (a tad on the thick side, my braces are only 16" apart, I was hoping for .032 or .060. The only sheets in inventory show to be 6061 (again overkill for this application) we do a lot of metal work where I work so I will probably see what the price they give me for this vs what they would have to get if they ordered what I really want. (2 pieces would do almost the entire bottom)

Again this is a longer term "want" project.
-ron

[cobbhunts]

Well to give you an idea of cost, Grade 3003 Alum in .040 thickness runs about $102.40 per 4' x 10' sheet. Same grade in .063 thickness averages about $126 per 4 x 10 sheet. I would use 3003 in the .040 or .063 if I could justify buying it. I may down the road when I get in the swing of paying a boat payment!!

.063 - 6061-T6 will run about $195 per 4 x 10. These prices fluctuate significantly, but this should give you an idea. I primarily deal with the 4 x 8 or 4 x 10 sheets. Sometimes we have ordered 8' x 24' sheets of steel to save cost and then plasma cut them down to 4 x 8 sized sheets before they go out to the water jets or lasers.

Don't get the wrong idea. I only know about under skinning based on what I have read, but I do know about practical applications of metals and to me I would think the .040 would suffice and cut down on the weight of thicker materials. The only thing I can see is that the .063 would be more rigid. But once you get any thickness of under skin cinched down it will provide a more rigid platform than what's there now. Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, just trying to help.

The 3003 grade is plenty corrosion resistant for this application in my opinion. 6061 is a little better and 5052 is excellent as well. If I were in saltwater I would choose the 5052. Best of luck and keep us posted on both the motor issues and the progress of your new project!!

[ronb]

The internal saleman shot me a price of $150 for the 5x10ft .080 (did not verify grade), he hasn't gotten back to me on prices of 'new' .032 3003 yet. I live in the middle of the continent, the chances of me getting anywhere near saltwater on my pontoon are pretty derned slim..

A question that I have been wondering about the underskinning is, why always aluminum/metal? I understand that it is tough enough to take the beating, and a lot of people like it because it adds a second 'surface' to the deck supports, but what if all I really want is reduced splash and to get rid of the braking affect caused by the splashing? Yesterday, I was talking with one of our assembly workers yesterday and he was mentioning to me a thick plastic/rubber sheeting that is used on the floors of semi trailers to assist with sliding out heavy objects. It would be much thicker than aluminum but he said that they did a 8ft x 53 ft dry van and the rolled up sheet was light enough for 2 guys to carry. Then I would use some sort of re-enforcement, either long strips that run from front to rear (perimeter and a few in the middle) or across the braces (width wise) I am going to follow up with the engineer that spec'd that material to see if he can get me any additional information about it (strength/name)

I take pictures of almost everything that I do, mostly because I suffer from CRS, but I have found that just because you are 'done' with a project that doesn't mean you paid attention to everything..

-ron

[MacToon]

...A question that I have been wondering about the underskinning is, why always aluminum/metal? I understand that it is tough enough to take the beating, and a lot of people like it because it adds a second 'surface' to the deck supports, but what if all I really want is reduced splash and to get rid of the braking affect caused by the splashing? Yesterday, I was talking with one of our assembly workers yesterday and he was mentioning to me a thick plastic/rubber sheeting that is used on the floors of semi trailers to assist with sliding out heavy objects. It would be much thicker than aluminum but he said that they did a 8ft x 53 ft dry van and the rolled up sheet was light enough for 2 guys to carry. Then I would use some sort of re-enforcement, either long strips that run from front to rear (perimeter and a few in the middle) or across the braces (width wise) I am going to follow up with the engineer that spec'd that material to see if he can get me any additional information about it (strength/name)...

It may be UHMW (Ultra-high Molecular Weight) plastic. I've never seen a boat underskinned with it and don't know the benefits/drawbacks, but they use the stuff for skid plates on off-road vehicles, so it's definitely made to take a beating. I'd be interested to hear if anybody has ever tried it and what the results were.

[ronb]

I had called over to mechanic on Monday, they said they would be working on it again today, just got off the phone with them and the replacement powerhead (low hours used) is in place and the electronics will be finished up tomorrow so we (they) can determine if the ECM is good or not. Looks like I should be back on the lake with my own toon by this weekend..

Of course now the real fun begins, the bill...... will the dealership stand behind his product?

In regards to the underskinning, I started thinking about 'resale' value... and I'd rather have something that looks like it might be stock, so I will be sticking with aluminum. One of the guys in my truck repair shop has some semi-truck side panels with a 'weird rib' in it that he will never use, 5 sheets total, they look to be (haven't measure them yet) 4ft x 8ft, painted (white or blue) on one side and raw aluminum color on the other side. He said I could have them for free. The price is right, but is that rib going to look 'weird' if/when I go to resell this toon?

Another option is a 5ft x 16ft sheet of .060, I don't have a price but it I would guess around $200, then I would have to cut it down to 10ft (9ft 5" actually and then put a 1" bend at the front edge) and a 1" bend down the 'long sides' it would fit right up into the belly of the beast. I talked to Forest River and they recommended .060 3003 (but that also happens to be the thinnest aluminum they order) and he also said they only skin the back half of the new pontoons. I am thinking about doing at least 2/3 or 3/4 of mine..

-ron